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	<title>Comments on: The extreme deficit of physics undergraduates (APS April 2008)</title>
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	<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/</link>
	<description>extra dimensions of particle physics</description>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-341836</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Apr 2011 04:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-341836</guid>
		<description>Thanks to everybody for the comments. Seems I&#039;m not alone. I am also a recent BS physics grad. I couldn&#039;t find anything in the field after my graduation, so I started a PhD. To be honest, I love what I&#039;m doing, and it seems that it won&#039;t be too difficult to find a postdoc position after my PhD. I&#039;d also be happy to get a postdoc salary and do science for the rest of my life... but the problem is that postdocs are available only for recent PhD grads and only for a couple of years. So for those considering becoming physics grads and reading this topic (it seem to be the first on the list if you google something with &#039;jobs&#039; and &#039;physics&#039;), be aware that you&#039;ll not only experience extreme difficulties finding a job after a BS in physics, but you also likely won&#039;t be able to work as a scientist for more then a couple of years... even if you are happy with low salary and even if you do your job well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everybody for the comments. Seems I&#8217;m not alone. I am also a recent BS physics grad. I couldn&#8217;t find anything in the field after my graduation, so I started a PhD. To be honest, I love what I&#8217;m doing, and it seems that it won&#8217;t be too difficult to find a postdoc position after my PhD. I&#8217;d also be happy to get a postdoc salary and do science for the rest of my life&#8230; but the problem is that postdocs are available only for recent PhD grads and only for a couple of years. So for those considering becoming physics grads and reading this topic (it seem to be the first on the list if you google something with &#8216;jobs&#8217; and &#8216;physics&#8217;), be aware that you&#8217;ll not only experience extreme difficulties finding a job after a BS in physics, but you also likely won&#8217;t be able to work as a scientist for more then a couple of years&#8230; even if you are happy with low salary and even if you do your job well.</p>
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		<title>By: Freeman Mccarroll</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-227858</link>
		<dc:creator>Freeman Mccarroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 08:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-227858</guid>
		<description>Hi there, I found your web site via Search engines while searching for a related topic for my study. Finally i found site talking this topic, It’s truly a good and also valuable little bit of information. I’m thankful that you really shared this specific useful information with us. Be sure to keep us up to date like this. Appreciate your sharing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there, I found your web site via Search engines while searching for a related topic for my study. Finally i found site talking this topic, It’s truly a good and also valuable little bit of information. I’m thankful that you really shared this specific useful information with us. Be sure to keep us up to date like this. Appreciate your sharing.</p>
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		<title>By: Keyla</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-48932</link>
		<dc:creator>Keyla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-48932</guid>
		<description>My friend has a Bs in Astrophysics from UCLA and could not do anything with it. I highly admire the people who can do physics. Its a hard subject. He had to rely on his pharmacy tech degree he acquired prior to getting his Physics BS. I don&#039;t know what it is, but, without wanting to offend anyone, physicist tend to be cocky and antisocial, and maybe these hinders their employment opportunities. It may be a biological/genetic thing that leads them to be aloof and even defensive. I&#039;m sorry, that&#039;t the perception that I get but it may be rather jealousy that I can&#039;t be as good as they are in such a mysterious and fascinating topic. All in all, this friend is a good person but I saw him as a waste of intelligence for not being able to find a job in his field. He is now considering or working towards a pharmacist degree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friend has a Bs in Astrophysics from UCLA and could not do anything with it. I highly admire the people who can do physics. Its a hard subject. He had to rely on his pharmacy tech degree he acquired prior to getting his Physics BS. I don&#8217;t know what it is, but, without wanting to offend anyone, physicist tend to be cocky and antisocial, and maybe these hinders their employment opportunities. It may be a biological/genetic thing that leads them to be aloof and even defensive. I&#8217;m sorry, that&#8217;t the perception that I get but it may be rather jealousy that I can&#8217;t be as good as they are in such a mysterious and fascinating topic. All in all, this friend is a good person but I saw him as a waste of intelligence for not being able to find a job in his field. He is now considering or working towards a pharmacist degree.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wieman</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-37483</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-37483</guid>
		<description>In a 2007 testimonial before congress the Vice President of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Michael S. Teitelbaum, is recorded on public record as saying 

&quot;First, no one who has come to the question with an open mind has been able to find any objective data suggesting general “shortages” of scientists and engineers. The RAND Corporation has conducted several studies of this subject; its conclusions go further than my summary above, saying that not only could they not find any evidence of shortages, but that instead the evidence is more suggestive of surpluses.&quot;

Vice President of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Michael S. Teitelbaum
before the
Subcommittee on Technology and Innovation
Committee on Science and Technology
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC
November 6, 2007</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a 2007 testimonial before congress the Vice President of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Michael S. Teitelbaum, is recorded on public record as saying </p>
<p>&#8220;First, no one who has come to the question with an open mind has been able to find any objective data suggesting general “shortages” of scientists and engineers. The RAND Corporation has conducted several studies of this subject; its conclusions go further than my summary above, saying that not only could they not find any evidence of shortages, but that instead the evidence is more suggestive of surpluses.&#8221;</p>
<p>Vice President of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, Michael S. Teitelbaum<br />
before the<br />
Subcommittee on Technology and Innovation<br />
Committee on Science and Technology<br />
U.S. House of Representatives<br />
Washington, DC<br />
November 6, 2007</p>
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		<title>By: Another Recent Physics Grad</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-31272</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Recent Physics Grad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-31272</guid>
		<description>I too am a recent BA physics grad.  I blame it on myself that I don&#039;t have a job, but I can attest to everyone else&#039;s lament.  What bothers me is that I have 4 friends that attend USC for Mechanical Engineering, and they say that the classes are the same as what I have taken for my BA, except for fluid dynamics.  They would know, because they are in the 3-2 Engineering program.  However, I was told by too many companies that I lacked the experience and technical skills needed for engineering, and that physics had nothing to do with engineering.  They pointed me towards consulting positions, which then were turned off by my lack of &quot;people skills&quot; (which I beg to differ but it&#039;s hard to prove as a physics grad). 

So yes, jobs for BA/BS Physics are grim, and I wish I too went the 3-2 route.  I don&#039;t know why engineers are more respected than physicists.  I think it should be the other way around.  But it all boils down to the root of all evil, i guess.  But also, a physicist could easily become an engineer in a small matter of time, and not so much the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too am a recent BA physics grad.  I blame it on myself that I don&#8217;t have a job, but I can attest to everyone else&#8217;s lament.  What bothers me is that I have 4 friends that attend USC for Mechanical Engineering, and they say that the classes are the same as what I have taken for my BA, except for fluid dynamics.  They would know, because they are in the 3-2 Engineering program.  However, I was told by too many companies that I lacked the experience and technical skills needed for engineering, and that physics had nothing to do with engineering.  They pointed me towards consulting positions, which then were turned off by my lack of &#8220;people skills&#8221; (which I beg to differ but it&#8217;s hard to prove as a physics grad). </p>
<p>So yes, jobs for BA/BS Physics are grim, and I wish I too went the 3-2 route.  I don&#8217;t know why engineers are more respected than physicists.  I think it should be the other way around.  But it all boils down to the root of all evil, i guess.  But also, a physicist could easily become an engineer in a small matter of time, and not so much the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard McBroom</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-20382</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard McBroom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-20382</guid>
		<description>I am so flooded with emotion upon reading the posts regarding the dearth of physics undergraduates, that I must reserve comment at this time, except to state, “I know!”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so flooded with emotion upon reading the posts regarding the dearth of physics undergraduates, that I must reserve comment at this time, except to state, “I know!”</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-20219</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 08:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-20219</guid>
		<description>I have a bachelors in physics, and it is incredibly difficult to find industry employment.  I&#039;ve been interviewed by hiring managers only to be told that they don&#039;t believe physics has anything to do with engineering or that anyone with a physics degree can do even close to the work of engineers.  I&#039;ve even been told at a shipyard interview where the CEO has a B.S. in physics that physics has nothing to do with anything done at a shipyard.  This particular manager proclaimed that he failed physics in college, so he was proof that physics is not important.

I think my experience is important to relay to others because it outlines some of the barriers to being hired after earning a physics degree, at least at the bachelors level.  Many hiring managers seem to have a personal bias against physics.  They either think of Albert Einstein or their personal negative experiences with a physics class in high school or college. One interviewer went as far as to say that his high school physics teacher sucked, so I must suck as well since I currently teach high school physics.

Why do I want to leave a high school physics teaching position?  In my state, Earth Science, Biology, and Chemistry are state required courses with mandatory state tests at the end of the year.  Physics is treated as an extra elective with no state test.  Therefore a student will not receive credit necessary to graduate by taking physics.  Imagine the impact that has on enrollment.  I&#039;m told by my administration on a daily basis that I&#039;m an extra and can lose my job at anytime enrollment drops for any reason. This includes kids who drop the class because I actually ask them to do work.  Most students realize they don&#039;t need my class for graduation, and they come right out and tell me that they&#039;re not going to do the work.  Some have even told me that they&#039;re dropping the class just to try and make me lose my job.  So much for STEM.

What I have seen of STEM in my school system?  They are only pushing engineering.  To make matters worse, my school seems to only be pushing environmental engineering.  Even for those students who want to become engineers, they tell the kids that physics is not necessary.  This advice is untrue, but it is given anyway.  The biology teachers advise the kids that physics is only math word problems.  Imagine the effect that has on most kids, especially in a school system where standardized math test scores lag behind other schools in the area.

My administrator sends me mixed messages.  First, I&#039;m told that my job is hard to fill because there aren&#039;t enough qualified physics teachers out there.  Then, I&#039;m told that I can be fired at any moment due to budget or lack of enrollment.  Finally, I&#039;m told that our students aren&#039;t smart enough to study physics because it deals with math.  This is despite the fact that I teach 3 types of physics classes.  One is mostly conceptual.  In another class, I teach the math as we go along, and students finally end up learning why they were supposed to learn things like trigonometry in the first place.  It isn&#039;t just my impression that students are finally understanding the math.  They actually tell me that they finally understand it, and they go further by asking why their math teachers never applied the math to anything real.  To top it all off, our school has nothing in the way of science fair or science olympiad, so I volunteered to start these programs and mentor the students.  What did I get stuck with?  Organizing the high school prom.  Come on, I studied physics in college. Organizing or even attending the high school prom is my version of living in hell.  

Some STEM high school.  With all of this nonsense in the education field, there is no wonder it is so hard to find someone willing to teach high school physics!  What sane person wants to subject themselves to that treatment on a daily basis and not even be paid a living wage?

My experience with the STEM program is that it is just politicians&#039; efforts at making the American tax payer feel like something is actually being done to improve our education in science, technology, engineering, and math.  A lot of the students I&#039;ve come across in my school can&#039;t even tell you what STEM stands for.  Some of the teachers in my school don&#039;t even know what all of the letters stand for.

To tie up my story on the job search in industry, I&#039;m going back to school at night to work on my engineering degree so I am employable.  I&#039;ve been asked why I didn&#039;t study engineering if I wanted to apply for engineering jobs too often that I realize I need to go back to school and retrain.  Unfortunately, I believed what my physics department told all of us that we could actually be employable in industry by studying physics, even if we ended at the bachelors level.  I did undergraduate research projects, even a thesis in materials physics that won awards that should have been assigned at the masters level.  My take on it now is that the physics department simply needed rear ends in chairs to keep their jobs going.  I love physics, but I sincerely regret choosing it as my major in college.  Hiring managers tend to believe that I learned nothing transferable to the industrial job world.  Unfortunately, those managers with their views, inaccurate as they may be, are the key to being hired in industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a bachelors in physics, and it is incredibly difficult to find industry employment.  I&#8217;ve been interviewed by hiring managers only to be told that they don&#8217;t believe physics has anything to do with engineering or that anyone with a physics degree can do even close to the work of engineers.  I&#8217;ve even been told at a shipyard interview where the CEO has a B.S. in physics that physics has nothing to do with anything done at a shipyard.  This particular manager proclaimed that he failed physics in college, so he was proof that physics is not important.</p>
<p>I think my experience is important to relay to others because it outlines some of the barriers to being hired after earning a physics degree, at least at the bachelors level.  Many hiring managers seem to have a personal bias against physics.  They either think of Albert Einstein or their personal negative experiences with a physics class in high school or college. One interviewer went as far as to say that his high school physics teacher sucked, so I must suck as well since I currently teach high school physics.</p>
<p>Why do I want to leave a high school physics teaching position?  In my state, Earth Science, Biology, and Chemistry are state required courses with mandatory state tests at the end of the year.  Physics is treated as an extra elective with no state test.  Therefore a student will not receive credit necessary to graduate by taking physics.  Imagine the impact that has on enrollment.  I&#8217;m told by my administration on a daily basis that I&#8217;m an extra and can lose my job at anytime enrollment drops for any reason. This includes kids who drop the class because I actually ask them to do work.  Most students realize they don&#8217;t need my class for graduation, and they come right out and tell me that they&#8217;re not going to do the work.  Some have even told me that they&#8217;re dropping the class just to try and make me lose my job.  So much for STEM.</p>
<p>What I have seen of STEM in my school system?  They are only pushing engineering.  To make matters worse, my school seems to only be pushing environmental engineering.  Even for those students who want to become engineers, they tell the kids that physics is not necessary.  This advice is untrue, but it is given anyway.  The biology teachers advise the kids that physics is only math word problems.  Imagine the effect that has on most kids, especially in a school system where standardized math test scores lag behind other schools in the area.</p>
<p>My administrator sends me mixed messages.  First, I&#8217;m told that my job is hard to fill because there aren&#8217;t enough qualified physics teachers out there.  Then, I&#8217;m told that I can be fired at any moment due to budget or lack of enrollment.  Finally, I&#8217;m told that our students aren&#8217;t smart enough to study physics because it deals with math.  This is despite the fact that I teach 3 types of physics classes.  One is mostly conceptual.  In another class, I teach the math as we go along, and students finally end up learning why they were supposed to learn things like trigonometry in the first place.  It isn&#8217;t just my impression that students are finally understanding the math.  They actually tell me that they finally understand it, and they go further by asking why their math teachers never applied the math to anything real.  To top it all off, our school has nothing in the way of science fair or science olympiad, so I volunteered to start these programs and mentor the students.  What did I get stuck with?  Organizing the high school prom.  Come on, I studied physics in college. Organizing or even attending the high school prom is my version of living in hell.  </p>
<p>Some STEM high school.  With all of this nonsense in the education field, there is no wonder it is so hard to find someone willing to teach high school physics!  What sane person wants to subject themselves to that treatment on a daily basis and not even be paid a living wage?</p>
<p>My experience with the STEM program is that it is just politicians&#8217; efforts at making the American tax payer feel like something is actually being done to improve our education in science, technology, engineering, and math.  A lot of the students I&#8217;ve come across in my school can&#8217;t even tell you what STEM stands for.  Some of the teachers in my school don&#8217;t even know what all of the letters stand for.</p>
<p>To tie up my story on the job search in industry, I&#8217;m going back to school at night to work on my engineering degree so I am employable.  I&#8217;ve been asked why I didn&#8217;t study engineering if I wanted to apply for engineering jobs too often that I realize I need to go back to school and retrain.  Unfortunately, I believed what my physics department told all of us that we could actually be employable in industry by studying physics, even if we ended at the bachelors level.  I did undergraduate research projects, even a thesis in materials physics that won awards that should have been assigned at the masters level.  My take on it now is that the physics department simply needed rear ends in chairs to keep their jobs going.  I love physics, but I sincerely regret choosing it as my major in college.  Hiring managers tend to believe that I learned nothing transferable to the industrial job world.  Unfortunately, those managers with their views, inaccurate as they may be, are the key to being hired in industry.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-19421</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-19421</guid>
		<description>This is intended for anybody reading this blog......

Let us not forget why people are attracted to the field of Physics in the first place. There are some of us (albiet very few) who are naturally instilled with a much deeper curiosity than others. We seek certain universal truths, we spend our entire lives seeking, it is in our nature. Physics is the &quot;root&quot; of all other sciences. The study of Physics can be traced back to the ancient Greek philosophers. They were seeking a deeper understanding of our world. 

This my friends, is what Physics is all about. We who pursue this &quot;purest of all sciences&quot; should not pursue it for profit, but rather to thicken the tome of human knowledge, to help dispel ignorance and to help elevate humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is intended for anybody reading this blog&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>Let us not forget why people are attracted to the field of Physics in the first place. There are some of us (albiet very few) who are naturally instilled with a much deeper curiosity than others. We seek certain universal truths, we spend our entire lives seeking, it is in our nature. Physics is the &#8220;root&#8221; of all other sciences. The study of Physics can be traced back to the ancient Greek philosophers. They were seeking a deeper understanding of our world. </p>
<p>This my friends, is what Physics is all about. We who pursue this &#8220;purest of all sciences&#8221; should not pursue it for profit, but rather to thicken the tome of human knowledge, to help dispel ignorance and to help elevate humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: alukojaph</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-9817</link>
		<dc:creator>alukojaph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-9817</guid>
		<description>I just feel worried. I think one can study physics at degree level and change thereafter at masters level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just feel worried. I think one can study physics at degree level and change thereafter at masters level.</p>
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		<title>By: RobertJ</title>
		<link>http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2008/04/13/the-extreme-deficit-of-physics-undergraduates-aps-april-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-215</link>
		<dc:creator>RobertJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/?p=104#comment-215</guid>
		<description>If these jobs are not filled, they will one way or another be outsourced to other countries. Therefore, for those of us with a physics degree, fewer competitors in the job market do not translate into more job opportunities.

Outsourcing is not possible in the case of e.g lawyers, which is one reason why you&#039;ll see stakeholder organisations in the natural sciences (like the APS) plead for more students to fill their ranks, but not hear it from organisations representing lawyers.

A corollary of outsourcing is that the &quot;invisible hand&quot; others mentioned will not necessarily raise our salaries nor fill magazines with job ads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If these jobs are not filled, they will one way or another be outsourced to other countries. Therefore, for those of us with a physics degree, fewer competitors in the job market do not translate into more job opportunities.</p>
<p>Outsourcing is not possible in the case of e.g lawyers, which is one reason why you&#8217;ll see stakeholder organisations in the natural sciences (like the APS) plead for more students to fill their ranks, but not hear it from organisations representing lawyers.</p>
<p>A corollary of outsourcing is that the &#8220;invisible hand&#8221; others mentioned will not necessarily raise our salaries nor fill magazines with job ads.</p>
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